Jung & Freud: From “Bro” to Broken

Apr 1, 2022

We welcome Jungian colleague, psychiatrist, and historian Dr. Bert Price M.D, whose research in Vienna during a 2019 international conference led to the discovery of new facts regarding the famous friendship—and break-up—of Jung and Freud. Following lively correspondence, the two men met in Vienna and talked for 13 hours. They continued over the next three days, and after attending the Wednesday night meeting of Freud’s Vienna circle, took a “spirited” walk to a tattoo parlor, stirred by the mythic significance of “marking” their newfound bond. 

The tattoo artist, Stefan Otto, was an Austrian sailor who had learned Chinese ink techniques while recovering from wounds in Tientsin (Tianjin), port city of Peking (Beijing), after the Boxer Rebellion. When Otto returned to Vienna, he was one of several tattoo artists in the Brigittenau District, home to an Austro-Hungarian naval river flotilla. Dr. Price discovered Otto’s tattoo catalogue while visiting the Heeresgeschichtiliches Museum, and saw it contained images of dragons remarkably like those in Jung’s later Red Book. Further examination of Otto’s log book (then a legal requirement) recorded a visit on March 6, 1907 by Herr Professor-Artz S. Freud and Dr. C.G. Jung. Both received “Kleine Drachenn Tatowwierung” (Small Dragon Tattoo). Dr. Price shares details of his important finding, providing new depth and understanding of the historic relationship between Jung and Freud.


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  1. Teal

    Your imaginations are ALL so lovable! Thanks for 42 minutes of an ear to ear smile!❤️

    • Janarthani Arumugam

      Brilliant episode. Thank you.

  2. Eva Studer

    I just finished the podcast. Is this real, or was the whole thing an April Fools Day joke?

  3. Deborah

    Love you guys, didn’t think you would top Jung’s milkmaid stamp collection, but you did. Thank you for the laughs!

  4. Linda

    Don’t know how you carried through without laughing. Thanks for this!! Especially loved Deb consulting an astrologist and the Tarot for her tattoo design.

    • Louise

      oh thank goodness.. I bought that completely at the time (Sorry Deb!)

  5. Sara

    The only thing I know about Jung comes from this podcast and listening to the episode I thought, “They have truly lost it, maybe I should look for a different podcast.”
    Glad I stayed through the end to get to the punchline, what a relief.

    • Robyn Martins

      I was going for my usual 2 mile walk with my dogs, listening to this podcast when I spotted a bottle cap on the ground. It had a 4 fingered dragon on it! Dragon Stout! Talk about synchronicity! I wanted to attach a photo but don’t see a way to do it

  6. Alberto

    Was that an April fool?🤔😔.. very sad

  7. Todd

    i think that Jung eventually had a modification featuring Siegfried who had poked the dragon in the heart. Then he had a further modification post WWI when someone had, in turn, poked Siegfried in the heart… by Jung’s late 60s the tattoo was just a bloody mess.

  8. Jo Thompson

    Who is playing Bert Price? Is that David Rosen?? 🙂

    • Joseph Lee

      LOL – it is actually Bert! He’s a good sport.
      ~ Joseph

  9. Debbie

    Hello, I can’t fathom out whether the whole episode about tattoos was made up or just the part about Deborah, Lisa and Joseph having tattoos? I’m confused and gutted 😞

  10. Deborah

    I woke up chuckling about the drooping and creeping of once fierce now compassionate dragon eyes on, or rather near, the gluteus maximus — of a, hmmmm, highly conscious MAN (no less). So nurturing is contact with the creative and collaborative contact with the Fool. What a gift! I did spend a good bit of imaginable time on designing my own very Celtic tattoo whilst ya’ll were speaking. Grateful for that, too. So much fun to even faux besmirch the Saturnian side of our patriarchal inheritance.

    Thank you, thank you and yuk, yuk!


  11. Deborah

    Whoops! That should read ‘imaginal’ time above!

  12. Mamie Allegretti

    Very funny, Joseph, Lisa and Deb! But after 200 episodes, I knew just by looking at the picture!

  13. Jacob Berkowitz

    The most creative and interesting April fool’s “joke” I’ve ever experienced…my guess is that it will be archived on the Internet somewhere, discovered in 50 years, and engage Freudian/Jungian scholars in a long debate about its veracity 🙂


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